What's the point of that California body shop plan? What's stopping the companies from simply setting up Google India subsidiary (or wherever are these people coming from) and hire people there for 20$/hour instead, skipping the middleman? It'll be both way cheaper due to the lower cost of life and they don't even have to bother with visas at all. Moreover, their local hires will be happy to work for that amount of money and live like normal people.
H-1B is a tool. Its use or abuse depends on the employer.
While the abuse you describe has long been common, and may now be universal, my personal experience is different.
In 1988 I was recruited from England on an H-1B visa. My employer recruited for brains, not bodies. They used H-1B to hire skilled people who could not otherwise work in the USA. I and others like me were treated just like any other employee. I received pay rises and promotions. I cannot say whether all this is still true.
In addition, my employer did everything possible to make us permanent employees. They paid staff lawyers to handle obtaining green cards through the proper channels, and later assist with citizenship applications. Most employers did not do this.
When I was applying for my green card (which was actually pink), the process involved the employer advertizing to preferentially recruit US citizens, to determine whether any were available. This had to be a genuine hiring process, not just for show. I reviewed the job ad, and commented that it seemed to accept a very wide range of candidates. The company HR responded that if they could get any US applicants that met the job description they would hire them all.
The abuse is made possible partly by the requirement that the visa is tied to the job. If the person leaves the job or is fired, they must leave the USA and start over. If the law allowed a grace period to find another visa-qualifying position, the employers' control would diminish.
Requiring/enforcing compensation fairness is harder. Defence contracting companies who need employees who can get security clearances must hire US citizens, and must pay what it takes to get them.
I've been waiting for days for someone to say that the reason they want the H1B workers is wage theft. There are plenty of American engineers who can fill those jobs, the big tech companies just don't wanna pay going rate for them. So they hire immigrants on the cheap and abuse them. None of those workers are even necessary.
Well, Trump went on record (its in the Fang post) as saying that he likes the program and he has used it many times himself. It is a good thing that the Trump base is educated about this and its leaders are talking about it. Trust me, Trump is not going to do anything about it since he is hamstrung by the Tech Bros his VP Vance brought with him. Also, do not believe a single word Vance says about H1-Bs or MAGA this and MAGA that. Its all just talk.. Expect this H1-B meme to be overshadowed by something else pretty soon. Musk and his MSM pals will join hands on this one because they are all agreed that the more H1-B visas they can hand out, the better the bottom line is for them. I would sincerely like them to approve a H1-B visa for Doctors. Allow Infosys, Cognizant and HCL and Wipro to import Doctors from India into the US just like they do for engineers. We could knock the bottom off those King's Ransom Physician and Speciality Physician salaries. Yep, I would definitely support H1-B visas for Doctors from India. They are better trained (British system) than our own, work harder and take less pay. The Indian Doctors you see here all came through the marriage visa or were born here. If they have an Indian accent then it means they came here via marriage or they lied their way here on a student visa (hiding their Medical degree). I had a classmate in College (circa 1990) who did this. Came here on his B.S degree, wrote his ECFMG/USMLE exams here, applied for a residency, got it, quit school and started working.
Physicians from India do come here, on J1s. At which point they receive additional training by completing US residency and fellowship training programs. Maybe this is why they appear better trained, as they have many additional years of training, has little to nothing to do with British vs US vs Canadian systems.
Many of them, if they wish to stay in the US then are given H1Bs and are asked to serve underserved areas, where they are (or are not) abused as described here and by the commenter's (low pay, excessive work loads). Just thought I'd share this with you, they do not come here predomintly via marriage, etc...
On a side note.
If you think US citizens trained in the US as physicians are so poor at there jobs and overpaid, maybe you should try to become one? You seem to know a lot about these things...
But it takes someone with a big heart that is willing to pay half of their "King's ransom" back to the federal and state government to support education, roads, others retirement, and of course healthcare. Not much of a ransom after all, after all that training and time and cost of education.
Half? -- BS. So, you think people with high incomes should not contribute to our society, and they certainly don't pay anywhere near half their income. It's because of people like you that we have poor roads, collapsing bridges, out of control homeless, and poor health, mental and physical.
Just do a search for "H–1B" or "h1B". Good old Democrat Tom Daschle loves the bill. And this is from September 2000. You know the saw:
"The H–1B visa program was supposed to prevent such shortages, but it cannot because it has not kept pace with [growth] ... This year, in fact, the H–1B program reached its ceiling of 115,000 visas in less than 6 months..."
I can tell you stories from 1999 til now about H-1B wage slaves to underpaid Yankees, in the software devel arena. Congress was scared of tech companies then and scared now.
Are Musk’s solutions to these problems legitimate? Is this a debate, or a take-it-or-leave-it proposition? Can we address the nominal utility of the H-1B, or de we throw the baby out with the bath water?
What's the point of that California body shop plan? What's stopping the companies from simply setting up Google India subsidiary (or wherever are these people coming from) and hire people there for 20$/hour instead, skipping the middleman? It'll be both way cheaper due to the lower cost of life and they don't even have to bother with visas at all. Moreover, their local hires will be happy to work for that amount of money and live like normal people.
I love seeing a strong conversation developing here. Thanks to all the contributors.
Thomas
Unbelievable ... But what do you expect when you have unregulated capitalism on steroids. And now they're paying record low taxes to boot. WTF!
As you know, Tom, that's win-win for the bullionaire class.
Thomas
H-1B is a tool. Its use or abuse depends on the employer.
While the abuse you describe has long been common, and may now be universal, my personal experience is different.
In 1988 I was recruited from England on an H-1B visa. My employer recruited for brains, not bodies. They used H-1B to hire skilled people who could not otherwise work in the USA. I and others like me were treated just like any other employee. I received pay rises and promotions. I cannot say whether all this is still true.
In addition, my employer did everything possible to make us permanent employees. They paid staff lawyers to handle obtaining green cards through the proper channels, and later assist with citizenship applications. Most employers did not do this.
When I was applying for my green card (which was actually pink), the process involved the employer advertizing to preferentially recruit US citizens, to determine whether any were available. This had to be a genuine hiring process, not just for show. I reviewed the job ad, and commented that it seemed to accept a very wide range of candidates. The company HR responded that if they could get any US applicants that met the job description they would hire them all.
The abuse is made possible partly by the requirement that the visa is tied to the job. If the person leaves the job or is fired, they must leave the USA and start over. If the law allowed a grace period to find another visa-qualifying position, the employers' control would diminish.
Requiring/enforcing compensation fairness is harder. Defence contracting companies who need employees who can get security clearances must hire US citizens, and must pay what it takes to get them.
I fear those days are long gone, Tony.
I've been waiting for days for someone to say that the reason they want the H1B workers is wage theft. There are plenty of American engineers who can fill those jobs, the big tech companies just don't wanna pay going rate for them. So they hire immigrants on the cheap and abuse them. None of those workers are even necessary.
The other issue is allowing india to have a cheap currency
Work in USA save some USD then can retire like a king in India
We need to end income tax and also make issuing common stocks with no dividends
That would end all the useless tech companies that have trillions but are causing American decline
Well, Trump went on record (its in the Fang post) as saying that he likes the program and he has used it many times himself. It is a good thing that the Trump base is educated about this and its leaders are talking about it. Trust me, Trump is not going to do anything about it since he is hamstrung by the Tech Bros his VP Vance brought with him. Also, do not believe a single word Vance says about H1-Bs or MAGA this and MAGA that. Its all just talk.. Expect this H1-B meme to be overshadowed by something else pretty soon. Musk and his MSM pals will join hands on this one because they are all agreed that the more H1-B visas they can hand out, the better the bottom line is for them. I would sincerely like them to approve a H1-B visa for Doctors. Allow Infosys, Cognizant and HCL and Wipro to import Doctors from India into the US just like they do for engineers. We could knock the bottom off those King's Ransom Physician and Speciality Physician salaries. Yep, I would definitely support H1-B visas for Doctors from India. They are better trained (British system) than our own, work harder and take less pay. The Indian Doctors you see here all came through the marriage visa or were born here. If they have an Indian accent then it means they came here via marriage or they lied their way here on a student visa (hiding their Medical degree). I had a classmate in College (circa 1990) who did this. Came here on his B.S degree, wrote his ECFMG/USMLE exams here, applied for a residency, got it, quit school and started working.
Physicians from India do come here, on J1s. At which point they receive additional training by completing US residency and fellowship training programs. Maybe this is why they appear better trained, as they have many additional years of training, has little to nothing to do with British vs US vs Canadian systems.
Many of them, if they wish to stay in the US then are given H1Bs and are asked to serve underserved areas, where they are (or are not) abused as described here and by the commenter's (low pay, excessive work loads). Just thought I'd share this with you, they do not come here predomintly via marriage, etc...
On a side note.
If you think US citizens trained in the US as physicians are so poor at there jobs and overpaid, maybe you should try to become one? You seem to know a lot about these things...
But it takes someone with a big heart that is willing to pay half of their "King's ransom" back to the federal and state government to support education, roads, others retirement, and of course healthcare. Not much of a ransom after all, after all that training and time and cost of education.
Half? -- BS. So, you think people with high incomes should not contribute to our society, and they certainly don't pay anywhere near half their income. It's because of people like you that we have poor roads, collapsing bridges, out of control homeless, and poor health, mental and physical.
here's a link on H1-B's:
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CRECB-2000-pt14/pdf/CRECB-2000-pt14.pdf (Congressional Record from 9/27/2000)
Just do a search for "H–1B" or "h1B". Good old Democrat Tom Daschle loves the bill. And this is from September 2000. You know the saw:
"The H–1B visa program was supposed to prevent such shortages, but it cannot because it has not kept pace with [growth] ... This year, in fact, the H–1B program reached its ceiling of 115,000 visas in less than 6 months..."
I can tell you stories from 1999 til now about H-1B wage slaves to underpaid Yankees, in the software devel arena. Congress was scared of tech companies then and scared now.
A notorious case a few years ago involved Disney workers who before being let go weere expected to train their H-1B replacements.
Also note how the offered salaries for tech jobs cluster around the eligibility cut-off for H-1B visas.
Are Musk’s solutions to these problems legitimate? Is this a debate, or a take-it-or-leave-it proposition? Can we address the nominal utility of the H-1B, or de we throw the baby out with the bath water?
Ain't no baby there , just dirty water. My super qualified tech friends who've been laid off have been on it for years.
I remember learning about ten years ago that there were more honor students in India, and also in China, than there were students in the US.